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Wotan

Эффективность "Тайфунов"

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Posted (edited)
4 часа назад, mehh сказал:

"Тфйфун" конечно как штурмовик машина хорошая и сдачи дать можно....

 

Попадалось что-то и по эффективности Тайфунов - "разоблачают" не меньше нашего Ила ))) В каком-то отчёте июня 44-го писали, что после исследований пришли к выводу, что Тайфун по точности бомбометания ничем не отличается от Спитбомбера, единственный плюс Тайфуна, то, что он брал в два раза больше Спита, т.е. вдвое сократилось количество б/в по цели, и то, пока Спиту не перекрутили центральный пилон (что усложнило бомбометание). 

Типа, чтобы нанести существенный урон цели типа мост, нужно было совершить 90–180 б/в Спитами против 45–90 Тйфунами. Если цель защищалась ПВО, то с точностью было всё ещё хуже. Про РС отдельная тема, из-за их низкой точности. Ну и типа, тщательное изучение "уничтоженной" немецкой бронетехники которая усеивала Нормандский ландшафт, указывало на нечто совершенно иное, о чем докладывали лётчики - чаще всего гибель техники была вызвана наземным огнем, механическими дефектами, отсутствием топлива и подрывом экипажем.

Edited by Wotan
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Но моральное воздействие налеты авиации союзников на экипажи бронетехники оказывали вполне себе ощутимое. 

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14 часов назад, Wotan сказал:

Попадалось что-то и по эффективности Тайфунов - "разоблачают" не меньше нашего Ила )))

 

12 часов назад, MicroShket сказал:

Но моральное воздействие налеты авиации союзников на экипажи бронетехники оказывали вполне себе ощутимое. 

в те времена ракеты вообще прицельно не летали,только моральное воздействие и было)))),хотя землю перепахивали вместе с пехотой и лёгкой техникой,если таковая попадалась...это тут,в игре мы снайперы)

а бомбу прицельно уложить ,тоже опыт надобен..

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Posted (edited)
2 часа назад, mehh сказал:

в те времена ракеты вообще прицельно не летали,только моральное воздействие и было)))

 

 

Это и забавно, что всю эффективность Тайфуна как бы свели к влиянию на моральный дух противника. И то, некоторые авторы не советуют этим увлекаться, т.к. такое влияние просто невозможно ничем измерить, и число бросивших свою технику танкистов, и бежавших от атак Тайфунов солдат, также невозможно сосчитать, просто не существует таких данных. Даже в Британия в Войне, в номере посвящённом крайней годовщине высадки в Нормандии, прошлись по мифу:

 

900.jpg.eb0245782912f614b0475e5c45e0a6b0.jpg

 

В общем, встречал такую точку зрения, что Тайфун над полем боя, более влиял на поднятие морального духа у своих войск, чем на снижение духа у противника.

 

И кстати, вспомнил, что какой-то ветеран-лётчик Тайфуна вспоминал, что мол у немцев был приказ не брать в плен прыгнувших или севших на вынужденную пилотов Тайфунов, и что ему были известны случаи, когда этот приказ выполнялся, и это отрицательно влияло на дух лётчиков.

 

Надо бы закинуть про это товарищам, может в курсе, а то, что-то не верится и на байку похоже.  

 

 

2 часа назад, mehh сказал:

это тут,в игре мы снайперы)

 

Ну да, в играх как-то так: 

 

"37 танков я пронзил одним патроном. Остальные разбежались. Их там Калуга, мой второй номер, доколачивает прикладом". (с) Ефрейтор Святкин. Х.ф. "Аты-баты, шли солдаты".

 

 

2 часа назад, mehh сказал:

а бомбу прицельно уложить ,тоже опыт надобен.

 

это да...  По данным одной группы входящей во 2ТАФ за один месяц 1944го, три эскадрильи Тайфунов сбросили 3412 бомб, три эскадрильи Мустангов 1909 бомб, двенадцать эскадрилий Спитов всего 747 бомбы, при этом, с учётом того, что заявки могли быть завышены, Спиты уничтожили наибольшее количество вражеских машин любого типа. Страфинг оказался наиболее эффективным.

 

С другой стороны, чего переживать за Тайфун и его ракеты и бомбы, ведь будет Темпест, без ракет и без бомб )))

 

Edited by Wotan
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Соррян за продолжение оффтопа, но оказалось что предыдущая тема была закрыта: 

 

 

А вчера в одном журнале посвящённом крайней годовщине высадке в Нормандии, попался неизвестный мне эпизод связанный с Тайфуном и "дружественным огнём":

Скрытый текст


Цитата

‘Friendly’ fire
On 27 August 1944 HMS Jason set off with her fellow minesweepers HMS Britomart, Salamander and Hussar along with the supporting trawlers HMS Lord Ashfield and Colsay. Sealey recalls that the weather was fine. “We got orders to go off the French coast at Le Havre because the Jerries still held that part of France on the Seine. We were out there sweeping in beautiful hot weather in August.” HMS Jason was guiding the flotilla and flanked by the Britomart and Salamander on either side. HMS Hussar was following
behind while the two trawlers were laying buoy lines in the rear. At 1.30pm Sealey recalled seeing RAF aircraft appear but in unfavourable circumstances. “These aeroplanes came over and buzzed us a couple of times and we knew they were ours. However before we knew what was happening they came back around and sunk two of our ships and blew one in half!”
The aircraft in question were 16 rocket-firing Hawker Typhoon fighter-bombers from 263 and 266 (Rhodesia) Squadrons and 12 supporting Supermarine Spitfires from a Polish squadron. HMS Jason immediately fired her anti-aircraft guns before signalling at 1.32pm and 1.34pm, “Am being attacked by friendly aircraft.” At the same time the other ships were also under attack, particularly the Britomart, Salamander and Hussar. The ships burst into flames with the Britomart listing to port while the Typhoons swept around for another attack.
HMS Jason was raked by aircraft cannon fire that disabled the anti-aircraft guns and cut the steam pipe that made a loud shrieking noise. At 1.37pm the Jason signalled, “Three ships hit and in danger of sinking,” while the Britomart continued to sink and HMS Hussar and Salamander burned heavily.
Sealey became one of the many casualties during the attack. “I got wounded. We were attacked by RAF Typhoons firing rockets but what hit me was ordinary cannon fire. I was part of a watch party that was aft of starboard. It was just outside the wardroom where there was a ladder that went up to the boat deck. During the bombing the area where we were suddenly became full of blue sparks flashing and I was bowled over on the boat deck. I ended up lying on the deck and when I got up there was blood everywhere and that was it. I wasn’t wounded badly but I was put in the wardroom with the other wounded. I had bits of shrapnel in my right foot, back and three or four pieces in my hip. I had those pieces for ages.”
After a final attack at 1.40pm the aeroplanes flew away. The attack had only lasted around ten minutes but the RAF left behind burning, sinking ships and a sea that was strewn with debris and struggling survivors. Tragically, the ordeal was not over as Sealey explains: “HMS Britomart copped it and she went straight down and then HMS Hussar also went down. HMS Salamander was blown in half and my ship HMS Jason also got hit. At the same time the Jerries fired from their shore batteries and there were all these survivors in the water and their heads were being blown off. It was so terrible.”
Despite her own considerable damage HMS Jason had taken the lead in rescuing survivors from the stricken Salamander and Hussar. During the evacuation from the Hussar, Jason’s crew put down scrambling nets and rescued over a dozen survivors when the German shore batteries opened fire. One shell landed 90 metres (295 feet) from the Jason and forced her to retire with sailors still in the water. The ship then laid smoke screens to provide cover while it towed the Salamander back to Arromanches.
After returning to Arromanches the Jason moved on to evacuate the wounded, including Sealey, in what turned out to be a personal blessing in disguise. “HMS Jason had quite a few holes in her but our skipper steamed us into Cherbourg and there was a hospital ship ready for us for the wounded including myself. We came back over to Portsmouth but instead of being sent to the local naval hospital I was put on an army train to Basingstoke initially and then on to Sedgefield, County Durham, where I met my wife who was a nurse.

 

The cover-up
The RAF attack on the 1st MSF had caused enormous damage. HMS Britomart and Hussar had been sunk while HMS Salamander was so badly damaged that she had to be scrapped. There was also heavy damage and casualties on other ships and in total 117 sailors were killed with a further 147-153 wounded. It was the largest single naval loss of Operation Overlord that was not the result of German action.
Sealey contends that his attackers knew the ships’ identity but had to proceed because of pressure from the admiralty. “The planes knew who we were after flying around two or three times but whoever was ashore in France - an admiral apparently - said that shipping should not be in that area and that they had to get on and do it. In those days you’d sometimes get a ship with a British flag up and it would turn out to be German so the planes were given strict orders to sink whatever was there but they knew we were British.”
The tragic incident had occurred because of poor communication. Naval officers had signalled orders for the sweep on 27 August but a routine copy had not been sent. The officer responsible was new in his post and his supervisor had not noticed the error. Additionally, the naval shore radar was disabled that day and consequently the flotilla was not spotted moving into the area.
Despite these errors the RAF had themselves expressed doubt about German ships operating off Le Havre in broad daylight. The operations record book of 263 Squadron stated, “Six ships were located at the given pinpoint sailing south-west. Four were probably destroyers and two motor vessels. Owing to doubt as to the identity the controller was asked four times whether to attack. The controller said there were no friendly ships in the area and ordered an attack.”

 

“WE WEREN’T ANGRY WITH THE RAF BUT WE DID BLAME THE ADMIRAL”
Such miscommunication cost many lives and there was an immediate cover-up of the incident. Sealey recalls, “We didn’t know if there was an enquiry, it was all hushed up.”
There had actually been an enquiry at Arromanches two days after the incident, which concluded that Rear Admiral James Rivett- Carnac had ordered the RAF attack because he had not been informed of the flotilla’s work in the area. Three subordinate officers were subsequently court-martialled with one - Acting Commander D N Venables - receiving a severe reprimand for not thoroughly checking the amended order on 27 August.
None of this complicated set of badly relayed orders was fully explained to victims like Sealey and his crew members, who were left in the dark over the details. “It was quite some afterwards when we knew what had actually happened. We weren’t angry with the RAF but we did blame the admiral. Somebody should have picked up a phone and said, ‘We’ve sent these minesweepers around there because there were still Germans in the area’.”
The admiralty’s embarrassment was so acute that recommended bravery awards for personnel caught up in the incident were almost denied until one outraged senior admiral intervened. Nevertheless, the cover-up was strictly imposed as Sealey remembers. “Afterwards we were told, ‘Do not repeat what happened here and by whom.’ We were given strict orders not to mention it.”
It was an ignoble end to an avoidable incident that had been created by simple errors and inexcusable negligence. Men like Sealey from the 1st Minesweeping Flotilla had been a crucial factor in making the Allied invasion of Europe possible and they were ultimately ill- rewarded for their hard work and success.

 


 

 

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Posted (edited)

Да уж... Прямо "бей своих, чтоб чужие боялись". Похоже, против кораблей Тайфуны были действительно эффективны.

Edited by Dornil

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9 часов назад, Dornil сказал:

Да уж... Прямо "бей своих, чтоб чужие боялись". Похоже, против кораблей Тайфуны были действительно эффективны.

При полном отсутствии противодействия......:bye:

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Не при полном: HMS Jason immediately fired her anti-aircraft guns before signalling at 1.32pm and 1.34pm, “Am being attacked by friendly aircraft.”

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Вот здесь более полный разбор инцидента:

 

 http://www.halcyon-class.co.uk/FriendlyFire/friendly_fire.htm

 

Что-то я так и не понял про роль поляков, вроде как Джейсон обстреляли, но чувак с него, вполне мог неправильно опознать самолёты. С другой стороны, мне трудно представить, что бы поляки на Спитах остались в стороне. 

 

Вот это показалось забавным:

 

Цитата

I remember he said that – Yes, the Typhoons and Spitfires were British but these had been captured and flown by the Germans.

:)

 

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Док.фильм как-то смотрел про пилотов Тайфунов. Хроника, видео атак, воспоминания. Нормально они так ракетами залпом накрывали. "Чушки" по 8 штук одним залпом, жёстко так.

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Posted (edited)
1 час назад, =2ndSS=JOCKER сказал:

Док.фильм как-то смотрел про пилотов Тайфунов....

Поди этот:

 

typhoonhx8.jpg.22495109bcc816abc0d2c86f9eea971e.jpg

 

Хорошая серия по авиации РАФ, только некоторые у меня с адовым переводом

Edited by Wotan
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39 минут назад, =2ndSS=JOCKER сказал:

Может и он. Надо поискать в сети.

Либо так: https://rutracker.org/forum/tracker.php?f=821&nm=At War

либо так: https://rutracker.org/forum/tracker.php?f=103&nm=At War

 

Там перевод и озвучку некоторых сами организовывали

Без перевода на трубе:

 

 

 

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